Jenova Theory & Today's Perspective in Final Fantasy VII - Story & Lore explained (Spoilers)

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ThePhilosophersGames

7 måneder siden

Final Fantasy VII had a complex story for its time and became an all time classic. Many theories exist around FF7's story - like the Jenova Theory. Even who the main antagonist of the game is. Jenova? Sephiroth? Or Both? In this video I explore in detail why that is and if the Jenova Theory is plausible and why. We also look into the Sephiroth Theory (and a bit into a hybrid theory).

► Spoiler Warning for the original Final Fantasy 7 from 1997 (Ending, secret scenes, important story details, etc). Ofc the Final Fantasy VII Remake is related, but I won't speak about it here.

► Special Thanks:
halkeye777 (translated Japanese texts for me)
Check his Twitch Channel:www.twitch.tv/halkeye777
Twitter: halkeye777

► Mistakes:
-
In game Aerith is written Aeris, but the spelling was later officially changed to Aerith. This might be inconsistent in my sub titles.
- Background music of the game is not always muted
- Cetra is pronounced "Setra" not "Ketra" (thank you to Joao Leonardo) - my mistake, should have noticed. The Japanese name is Setora (セトラ; quote: セトラの手にとりもどすために生をうけた。何を悲しめというのだ?)
Retrospectively: thought English words starting with the letters C and E are also always(?) pronounced like this. Like certain, cemetery, cetology, etc.

► Playlists:
If you are interested in Tolkien's legendary fantasy Epic The Lord of the Rings and his related works, here some recommendations:

➥Book/Film Differences Series - nopost.info/throw/1suOZ6GcmHdondk/video

➥Recommended Lore Videos - nopost.info/throw/0cCljH-5uIybnrM/video


The Philosopher's Games / TPhGames

► Social Media:
➥Twitter (@PhilosophGames): philosophgames
➥Twitch Channel - twitch.tv/thephilosophersgames
➥Discord Server - discord.gg/SPW68vh




► Sources:

➥ Final Fantasy VII (English Steam Version; Japanese PS1 version)
Developer: Square (Square Soft)
Publisher: Sony Computer Entertainment
Release Date: January 31, 1997Platforms: PS1, PC, PS4, Xbox One, Switch, ...

➥ FF7 Mythologies (~1997)
by John Brittenham
Could not find the original source
My Source for the text (has also the English version):
cetraconnection.net/analysen-und-theorien/interpretation/brittenham/defining-the-story
cetraconnection.net/analysen-und-theorien/interpretation/brittenham

➥ NOpost Videos used as footage:
FF7 Jap: nopost.info/throw/xrjVq5yupXuqcqc/video
Street Fighter II: nopost.info/throw/v8CveKHd0nuBm5I/video
Quake (1996): nopost.info/throw/25zLoG7Oq4xic9E/video
Resident Evil (1996): nopost.info/throw/1c_RfJvJ1JaYZZI/video

► Hashtags:
➥ #FinalFantasyVII #FF7 #TPhGames

Kommentarer
Scott Shankle
Scott Shankle Måned siden
Crono trigger, final fantasy 7 and xenogears i still obsess over the stories at 36ys old
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames Måned siden
Yes I can see why, they are fantastic!
Bud Waller
Bud Waller Måned siden
I think sephiroth is in control because he took jenova's head. He didnt try taking anything else. Maybe that was the key to her power. Also I don't think we ever find sephiroth's true body after it disappears with the black materia both are never shown again.
Bud Waller
Bud Waller Måned siden
@ThePhilosophersGames Well I mean if he has Jenova head and brain maybe he can control the body? And yes sephiroth's real body is given the black materia but then disappears while the weapons emerge. I believe both are still missing and bizarro/safer sephiroth are still just manifestations of his power. The support for this is his return in AC. I believe throughout ff7 you destroy jenova body parts all through the story till the end only one remained jenova's head which is recovered in AC and destroyed there. I would feel Sephiroths true body is still somewhere with the black materia.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames Måned siden
the one in this bubble where Cloud gives him the Black Materia is most likely his true body (I show it somewhere in the video). As said it's possible, hat he is on control, but taking a head should imo not give him the same power of which he never showed before that he had those powers plus the translation errors that lead to a different conclusion.
Tuckernutz
Tuckernutz Måned siden
Sephiroth and Jenova are like Christ and God, two sides of the coin. Different sides. Same coin.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames Måned siden
Yes that goes more into the hybrid theory, which as said also makes sense.
John Smith
John Smith Måned siden
This is so good
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames Måned siden
Thank you :)
Jayson R
Jayson R 2 måneder siden
Interesting enough for ignoring the remainder of canon lore that explains things like why they didn't kill jenova and why you killing it at the end of the game, did more bad then good and actually playing into his hand.
Jandy Bchillin
Jandy Bchillin 2 måneder siden
Sephiroth is something like the Son of Man, or the Son of God, hence his special status as representing the will of the Father or, in this case, the Mother, Jenova. Lucretia is a virgin Mary figure, hence her bizarre scene where she is still alive, eternal, and a positive motherly figure. Sephiroth's will, like Jesus', is "one with the Father" or, again, one with the Mother. Edit: just realized you may have said this. I'm only 40 minutes in. Edit 2: OK so my suggestion still stands. Sephiroth is not just a super strong soldier, he was shaped while still a fetus as a son of Jenova. In his fleshly form, he is weak (hence Cloud can kill him) but he is working towards his resurrection in a glorified state (Safer Sephiroth). Jenova does not have to be more than an unconscious clump of cells for Sephiroth to choose to embody her will. Lucretia is a kind of failed virgin Mary while Aeris is the true one. You never consumate and she becomes the anti-Jenova, and instead of being the all consuming mother she is the all giving mother and gives her life to cleanse the Earth and Cloud's mind. The church is symbolically female in Revelation, and there is the imagery of the Church being the bride of Christ while also being the body of Christ. There also appears to be some oedipal themes at play here, so I think that, more than a critique of organized religion, it is taking imagery from Feuerbach, Freud, and Jung. In FF, instead of the Church being a human construct, it is the Earth itself. Before dismissing the religious imagery, note that FF has always had a strong philosophical undercurrent of critiquing organized religion and critiquing the attribution of personality to the Deity (FF10 is the least symbolic and most explicit example). FF still has a clear theological message, however, which is fascinating. I've always liked FF for it's bizarre give with one hand and take with the other critique of (usually) my religion. I suspect it is connected to Japanese history and the near takeover by Christian culture several hundred years ago before the purge. I would like to have a conversation with the author some day, but I am merely a humble weeb.
MMO Archives
MMO Archives 2 måneder siden
here's a theory, long ago at a different planet, the centra fought off jenova losing the battle with jenova destroying the planet forcing the centra to flee to earth/gaia to seek new settlement , then jenova crash landed on earth/gaia in the form of a meteorite, hence continuing the war
Cole McDew
Cole McDew 2 måneder siden
I always thought of Jenova is like the alien from The Thing a creepy abomination with no defined form that can shape shift into anyone and yet I find the idea of Jenova even more terrifying than The Thing since it can mess with your mind as well.
Ikati 7477
Ikati 7477 2 måneder siden
After playing all games in the ff7 universe and saw the movie i always had the the impression that Genova and Sephiroth(after his death) are the same thing. The game does indeed leaves you with that impression since Sephiroth doesn't have much character development untill we get to Crisis Core. I also learned some time later that they went with word by word translation for ff7 which was terrible and we, at the west, lost a lot of insight. Very well documented video about Genova overall and you should really cover other games aswell
The MADGamer
The MADGamer 3 måneder siden
This is the reason why I am fine with the changes in remake and not just being a 1:1 remaster. Because we wouldn't go anywhere else lore wise. We would be in the same spot as we were in 1997 after beating it. Now things have opened up to give us the nostalgia we wanted but also be able to piece this complexity together. And if it turns out that Sephiroth was too just a puppet and Jenova has in fact been the antagonist the entire time rather than a dormant clump of cells at Sephiroth's mercy... yeah no, she's still alive just dormant but still conscious and uses the bodies with her biology to do her bidding because of her dormant body. *I really hope Jenova is the very final boss fight in remake and is unlike anything we have seen before.* We have seen Sephiroth beaten already so many times in OG, in AC and in remake. With his exposure in the remake I dont think we are just gonna keep fighting him throughout the parts as the main boss fights.
The MADGamer
The MADGamer 3 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames I understand. We all got our preferences. It's difficult to come to a conclusion though, we have no idea how this is gonna transition into the rest of the story. So personally myself I been trying not to come to a definitive conclusion that they are completely rewriting. I'm sorry you hated remake. I loved it. Even with the changes, my desires of nostalgia were met and kinda like some new stuff. I don't care if they milk it, I don't want it to end. The characters, world and base story are my favorite, I want them to keep going so I have something to look forward to. Also with remake in the name already means creating something new. Completely remade. They are going for this "creating something new" remake while still blending it with nostalgia which has become a dream for some fans and a nightmare for others. Likewise if they did a 1:1 remaster, a lot of fans would love it but then there would be the ones like myself that want more. I played through FF7 OG many times, although I would be grateful of a 1:1 there wouldn't be as much anticipation and mystery cause we know everything it would just look and sound better. I too was overwhelmed with the dumpster truck of an ending but it has grown on me. I hope you like part 2 more :)
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 3 måneder siden
I would have actually preferred they would not milk FF7 at all, because it somewhat contradicts the point the story of the original tries to make. the trend of just not ending stories drives me insane these days (and just make sequel after sequel until a remake is done with sequels again). Instead they should (imo) just make totally something new as they did with all the other classic Final Fantasy games. Instead they "rewrite" the lore (and postulate interpretations), which puts in in a state of "arbitrariness" of the writers. Esp. the FFVII Remake's story did feel like it happens next what ever the writers are up to (which is ofc always true for fictional stories, but it's a hidden truth). It did not feel like an organic story development and it compromises the themes of the original story. Death and sacrifice seemed meaningless, etc. I absolutely hated the FFVII Remake, actually almost as much as I hated the story of Advent Children. I would have preferred staying more true to the original story and with that getting a good story or put the energy into something new. Square seem to have lost its ability to write good, interesting, somewhat meaningful and coherent stories for single player Final Fantasy games.
Jessie Joy
Jessie Joy 3 måneder siden
I THINK I MAY HAVE NOTICED SOMETHING COOL ABOUT JENOVA!! I was watching the cutscenes of crisis core. I was at the part where Sephiroth locks himself in the basement reading research documents going nuts. One of the documents said. “ Jenova CONFIRMED to be an ancient” So not only did everyone (shinra, scientists, Sephiroth) mistakingly think Jenova was an ancient, but somehow one of the scientists “confirmed” it? How do you confirm something that is false? I think this helps ur Jenova puppet master theory and I’ll explain... So as we’ve already understood Jenova has clearly been manipulating most the ppl in the game. Whether it’s consciously and in secret or subconsciously doesn’t matter for this. We both think that she has been manipulating Sephiroth as well. (I also believe that Sephiroth has definitely made useful for himself in a few ways during the game, but again irrelevant) In crisis core when Zack is coming up behind Sephiroth tearing up Jenova Sephiroth says “they’re here mother” referring to zack aka humans. “They took the world from you and we will take it back together and go to the promise land”. Sephiroth is talking to her like she is an ancient. Even though she really isn’t. Oh and b4 he says all this he starts with “I had an epiphany “. So really Sephiroths turn to the dark side was significantly connected to him believing Jenova was an ancient and the world was robbed from her. Who knows what would’ve happened if this weren’t the case. Back to the scientists confirmation. So remember they dug her up and immediately thought she was an ancient. I’m assuming before they found her they were already looking for ancients. It’s very possible that Jenova when found manipulated them all into believing she was an ancient on purpose so they would bring her in and do the experiments they did with her. It’s also possible the “confirmation” never actually happened. They just thought it did because Jenova made it so. Which in turn also leads to Sephiroth being manipulated into thinking Jenova was wronged and wanting to get revenge for her
Jessie Joy
Jessie Joy 3 måneder siden
To help you out with the Jenova theory.....she is a celestial. So she doesn’t need to have the limitations of humans. She could still be the puppet master behind all of this and be practically dead at the same time. She could be doing all of this unconsciously. It’s just what she does. Her nature is to manipulate to destroy Gaia. It’s probably the combination of both Jenova and Sephiroth together. Sephiroth is probably not completely of his own mind anymore and subconsciously doing Jenova bidding while thinking it’s his own. And at the same time Jenova is still doing her thing as well. And they just end up connecting at the end.
Jessie Joy
Jessie Joy 3 måneder siden
ThePhilosophersGames what I mean by celestial is that she’s like an alien. But also like a god. Basically she’s not from the planet Gaia and everything and anything you think you know about life doesn’t apply to her because you have no idea where she came from or what her history is. Sorta like lovecraft. Where these things are from different dimensions and their also godlike to us humans but their so advanced that everything about them is completely out of our understanding. So much so that seeing them or communicating with them could very well kill you or drive you insane. So wit Jenova she is from somewhere not of their planet. And she is very godlike. And there’s absolutely no way for any character in the game to understand anything about her. She is an alien, but sorta not. She is a god, but sorta not. What she is we just cannot comprehend. Aka a celestial. That’s why I came to the conclusion that she very well could be a massive manipulative puppet master in the game without really even being alive. Like what we understand as “alive” may not even be her alive. She can be doing all these things without actual intent. It’s just how she exists. Or like how she is used to surviving is conquering other places. So even if she isn’t conscious she is still subconsciously doing what she always does, conquer.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 3 måneder siden
Quite possible. What do you mean with celestial, like in the comics?
Jessie Joy
Jessie Joy 3 måneder siden
I see you’ve played souls. Watching this reminds me of souls lore videos. How come you never tried any of those?
Jessie Joy
Jessie Joy 3 måneder siden
ThePhilosophersGames so when it comes to souls you are right about ONE shitty thing. Dark souls 3 has pathetic lore. It was really just made in a cheap attempt to please the OG dark souls fans. When souls 2 came out there was a lot of debate about whether or not it was good. And 2 tried to create its own lore and story. So when 3 was made every little piece of lore just connects everything to something else in an unfortunate nonsensical way. They connect things just to connect things and it creates a lot of plot holes and contradictions. Everything is connected to everything with no good reasons. But as for the rest....every other soulslike FromSoftware games has amazing lore. Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne in particularly. I honestly find it to be the most in depth world building in any form of entertainment I’ve ever seen. It’s crazy how every single little thing means something. Especially in BB. Things like paintings on the walls, or silverware in a certain place, basically the location of everything you see means something. You just have to take ur time to look around. Watch JSF when it comes to BB lore and you’ll be fucking amazed. And for dark souls 1 Hawkshaw is extremely in depth and intense lol.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 3 måneder siden
I made a few videos about Souls some guides and some trailer analysis videos with a bit of theory crafting and lore. Dark Souls lore is a weird topic I feel. I came to the conclusion, that there maybe is not as much thought behind it, as people think and that people are overanalysing it a bit. Esp. Dark Souls 3 showed, that it makes far less sense and that some imo really good and interesting theories are wrong.
JKMlive
JKMlive 4 måneder siden
Personally I'd like to think that Jenova is more of the feral lovecraftian eldritch being from outer space, while Sephiroth is the sociopath methodical and nihilist alien hybrid. There goals are ultimately the same. While I do subscribe to the post game material I do think that Sephiroth was manipulated by Jenova when he found out the truth, due to him coming to conclusions about his origins contrary to the lab reports. In advent children he mentions that he wants to use the planet as a vessel to travel the cosmos and strt a new on a different planet like his "mother" did. Like a symbiosis or its in his dna to do this.
humble gamer
humble gamer 4 måneder siden
I always just liked the idea that hojo was acting to 'help' his son in his own perverse way "Atta boy, are you killing all humans son??"
MMO Archives
MMO Archives 2 måneder siden
hojo is the most misunderstood character in the whole game, no one questions why hojo is crazy to begin with, hojo injected jenova cells into his own body tricking lucrecia to have sex with him to see what would spawn in a child, the result was sephiroth, hojo stopped having free will the moment he injected himself with jenova cells, behind the scenes he was helping jenova gain strength over the planet and helped sephiroth achieve his goals
seyit sümeroğlu
seyit sümeroğlu 5 måneder siden
Well said sir ; this is what i have always thought since i played the game for the first time and even if developers state the opposite, Jenova Theory will always be the cannon for me . Sephiroth , Genesis , Angeal all are victims of the mad people who were supposed to be their family . Genesis murdered his own family because of that reason , Angeal's mother committed suicide because of her pain and regrets for what she caused in her child's life , Sephirot's mother committed suicide( didn't die) because of immense regret for what she have caused in her own child's life . When you visit her in the cave , first thing she asks is her son Sephiroth . When you think of Jenova Theory, story becomes so tragic and the supposed villains of the story become just victims and you start to pity them ; they never deserved that life but their fate just sealed by their own family when they were just in womb , their body abused and their lifes ruined. This adds another level of complexity and uniqueness to the supposed "villain" Sephiroth and overall story of ff7 .
Toomuchsugar
Toomuchsugar 5 måneder siden
SET TUR AH
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 5 måneder siden
haha no problem, nobody reads descriptions xD It was definitely a mistake by my side
Toomuchsugar
Toomuchsugar 5 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames Great video, very entertaining and insightful. Sorry for not reading the description before posting brother.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 5 måneder siden
You mean the Cetra? Foolish me did not count 1 and 1 together that the Setora/セトラ in Japanese should be pronounced Setra and not Ketra. Sorry for that. I think it's a German and LotR thing (where the C is often pronounced K). Interestingly even in English the C is often soft when followed by an e like in "certain". Only Example would be "Celtic", which can be pronounced both ways. Someone mentioned this before and it was already mentioned in the Mistakes section in the description of the video.
NarpytheCrimeDog
NarpytheCrimeDog 5 måneder siden
Chimera Theory. Similar to splicing two different fruit trees together to make one organism, when Sephiroth died in the Life Stream, he and Jenova were rejected by the life stream because they didn't belong on the planet, so they were isolated together and merged to create a separate entity that was a combination of the two: Jenivoth. Jenirphoth? Sevoroth? All of their strength, and only one weakness: spiky blond hair. And probably a low sex drive.
TedRay77
TedRay77 5 måneder siden
Great work. Just finished FFVII for the first time last night and I couldn't wrap my head around Sephirot and for me mostly felt - to describe it bluntly - as a scarecrow/phantom created by Jenova as he was known as a very powerful soldier - for me the Jenova Theory is not just the most fascinating but also the theory which makes the most sense. I still do have some open questions and ideas - which is why i will replay the game with "Beacause" retranslation mod again - with the danger running into more confusion. There is one thing I would like to discuss - its Cloud. Who is he, is he really a failed experiment? Why does no one remember Cloud and Tifa when they return to Nibleheim? Why do only Cloud and Tifa share similar memories? No pun intended, but Clouds memories are clouded - and we only get fragments of what might had happend in Nibleheim - and furthermore how he did overcome Jenovas control? At some point in the story even Jenova should have noticed that Cloud is becoming very powerful and a threat. Furthermore, Cloud also fell into the lifestream and survived it. I will replay it again and will see if there are any clues - strengthening my Cloud Theory. Was Cloud Jenovas backup for Sephirot or an antagonist deceiving her (unconsciously) - created by his own will or maybe by other entities? Or maybe its just a blunt love story between Cloud and Tifa and how Cloud found the drive to overcome his fears. Tifas martial arts master Zangan, carries and keeps her alive after the incident in Nibleheim to Midgar - thats what we found in the note hidden in Tifas sheet music. So what did happen to the people in Nibleheim and to Tifa and Clouds memory after all - where does their special connection come from? Maybe Tifa is also living false imprinted memories? Cloud is the one stopping Jenova with the help of his friends - how could he complete such a difficult endeavor - a failed experiment, just a puppet to Jenova - and in the end more powerful as her? Was there a turning point, a point in time when the planet chose him to become his avatar - was this before or after Aeris (Aerith) death? It seems that cloud is cleansed after defeating Jenova - which would make sense, as cleansing him before would have alerted Jenova, and she might not have let him that close. There they are - my incentives for another playthrough. I'd love to discuss them with you @ThePhilosophersGames and people in the chat here.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 5 måneder siden
No problem, I like answering comments ^^ Curious what you will think or find out. I also played through it on stream (in March/April if i recall correctly) to prepare making this video. I only know a bit of that one translation from the Reunion mod and some parts I looked at were translated quite differently translated towards a certain interpretation, even though it did not exist in the original text. I had one instance of a text that was not in the original Japanese text at all. Some were however much better translated, so take it with a grain of salt I guess (if you use this one, no idea if there are others). I however only looked a very few parts in the original translation an noticed it only there. Wish you a lot of fun ^^
TedRay77
TedRay77 5 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames Thank you for taking your time and give such an elabore answer! I indeed missed the secret sequence showing what happend to Cloud and Zack. (Noticed it while watching your video). Also missed the letter explaining the people in Nibleheim. Your reply made things a lot clearer to me now. I 100% agree that without Aerith (Aeris) there would have been no way to stop Jenova at all. It appears to me that the devs took plenty of ideas from shamanism when creating her and the ancients. (which might also explain the Wolf appearance in Advent Children - but lets not dive deeper into this movie ;) ). I just started the 2nd playthrough - and this time i am using a guide to not miss anything story related. It might take a while to get through the game again, especially with a certain amount of scrutiny. So far I like the new translation a lot. I will definetly come back here to give drop some thoughts. Take care!
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 5 måneder siden
If you go to Nibelheim in the present back into Tifa's room, you find a letter, that explains, that the people in Nibelheim are actually actors. Shinra rebuild Nibelheim after the incident 1:1, experimented on the survivors (Mako and Jenova cells; like with Cloud and Zack too in that secret sequence) and placed them there plus actors, who pretended nothing happened. So some of the Jenova "Clones" are actually people of Nibelheim. That is why they don't recognize you and you (Tifa and Cloud) don't know them and you can call them out for it. Cloud's and Tifa's shared meomries are true. If you enter the Shinra Lab in the Manor of Nibelheim after Cloud rejoins the party on CD2 (the Mideel thing), you start a secret sequence, that shows what happened to Cloud and Zack after that and how they got to Midgar - in case you missed it. So Cloud is actually the Cloud from Nibelheim, but he was put into a Mako tank, injected Jenova Cells and thus experimented on (same with Zack). Zack as Soldier however had already Jenova cells and Mako in him and was pretty much not really affected by this. Cloud in contrast had huge problems with it and his mind was basically nuked. When Zack was shot, the Shinra Soldiers left Cloud for dead. But he crawled to Zack and somehow melted with his personality. My theory was, that the desire to become a Soldier (and the pain of failing to reach it) was still so strong in him, that this was the only anchor for his mind and he grabbed it, basically becoming Zack. And since he had Mako and Jenova Cells he is actually now a soldier. All other Jenova "Clones" (so normal people just brute force exposed to Mako and Jenova Cells) also showed the same behaviour. they were not able to talk meaningfully anymore, (seemingly) did not know who they were (nobody showed sings of personality, they just blindly had the drive to go to Sephiroth/Jenova) for the Reunion. Interestingly Cloud has in my opinion no number, because he escaped. And all Clones failed, no matter if they had a number or not. The idea must have been to create another Sephiroth (= Sephiroth Clone) skipping the difficult method of using an unborn child. Else I have no idea what the idea of that experiment was at all. However all the poor people's mind except Zack's (who was a Soldier, so trained and selected after physical and mental tests, to withstand the procedure) were basically destroyed. But in the end Cloud could also get a personality back (Zack's) and when he fell into lifestream, his former self could even be restored, making him the only success. He is the only true Sephiroth Clone. A misconception is imo also that Cloud was weak. He wounded Sephiroth (which Zack could not) and later threw him down into the Mako pit. So he defeated him twice. it must also be considered that Cloud was wounded too, when he was captured and experimented on, and his body still survived. So Cloud was actually very strong. maybe his mind was not ready for the Jenova Cells/Mako exposure. It is also not clear how this experiment was different from process of becoming a Soldier. Maybe the exposure was more intense? Soldiers are not called Sephiroth clones, but the principle behind is seems to be identical. Maybe it was because they were strong enough to resist? FF7 alone does not answer this, but implies that there must be a difference between both processes. The humans turned into monsters in the Nibelheim reactor are also different. So I assume there are 4-5 different methods: - Mako and Jenova Cells exposure in these pressure tanks -> creates Monsters over time - Mako and Jenova Cells exposure to an Embryo -> Creates a being Human/Jenova Hybrid like Sephiroth (cat eyes) - Controlled Mako and Jenova Cells exposure to trained and specifically selected humans -> Soldiers - unkown degree of Mako and Jenova Cells exposure to randomly selected Humans -> creates so called Sephiroth "Clones", who lose their mind and become puppets (it also seems an epierment based on a theory and so far didn't work) - Injecting Jenova Cells (if there was exposure to Mako too is unknown) -> does what we see with Hojo at the end, who quickly mutates in several phases However Cloud somehow manages to overcome this, which is quite fascinating. In the end Cloud does not really win alone. It's Aeris, holy and the planet. Holy alone was also not enough (delayed and too late?), but teh lifeforce of the planet (prophecy by Bugenhagen) who cleanses all and wins. Cloud and his friends just freed the trapped (by Jenova/Sephiroth) the Holy spell, which was an important part too, by defeating or weakening its "keeper". Still Cloud is the only true Sephiroth Cloud, the only success. You could also interpret as him being Sephiroth 2.0, maybe a better Sephiroth (Cloud e.g. also travelled through the Lifestream maybe with Aeris help, just in the opposite direction as Sephiroth once and without Jenova's head; Cloud went from the North Crater to Mideel, while Sephiroth went from Nibelheim to the North Crater). Which is why he became so powerful. Tifa also travelled the Lifestream (to help Cloud) and the constant conflicts maybe made them very powerful too. All had strong reasons to fight Sephiroth, Jenova and Shinra. Sorry for the wall of text. In case you answer I will definitely read it, but probably won't have the time answer again in this length and detail, sorry for that in advance =/ There are a lot of great posts here already, but long texts usually require longer answers and they are very time consuming (and this is not my only video with long comments).
kentoku D
kentoku D 5 måneder siden
It's always fun to hear someone talk about something they're passionate about, the only thing I would add with my incredibly limited experience in the world of Final Fantasy 7 is it makes sense to believe that sephiroth was powerful enough to control Genova just because in all games and movies heroes and villains don't necessarily have plausible sources for their power and their will. One of the things that makes something most exciting in a storyline is when someone who doesn't seem to be capable of doing something does it just because they want to badly enough. I think it's in stark contrast with how reality works and that's why people like it so much. In truth we are limited beings who have been given boundaries which we cannot cross and I believe that the real source of power in our lives is the God who created us. A lot of good popular stories show people escaping from that and doing great things on their own or with their friends help. I think people crave this level of power and control over their own destinies and gravitate towards those storylines for that escape but I might be breaking it down way too philosophically XD it's a relatively well written story which synergizes extremely well with what people want from a story. God bless you and thank you for a very entertaining and insightful video
Box Morton
Box Morton 5 måneder siden
I totally buy into this theory. Just based on the literary placement of Jenova throughout the game: She's always brought up in a deeply mysterious way, mostly in the story-focused moments when there's a break in gameplay (Story at Kalm, Ifalna's videos, etc.). Personally, I felt Jenova was confusing the first time I played, because most of the scenes that give clues to her purpose and effect on the active adventure take place in a handful of brief, complicated, distracted scenes that happen before we're told any of the history and facts of Jenova. So she just has this underlying presence of something evil. It's not until the second time playing through that she made any sense The way we're first introduced to Jenova... just as we're caught up trying to learn the Shinra Executives' names and plots, we come to this one room, with this science chamber sitting VERY CONSPICUOUSLY to the side with this intriguing purple light. - I even remember exactly how I felt about it 20 years ago - I wanted to know so badly what was in there that it was making me anxious. It wasn't the kind of feeling you get when you think you found a cool item. No, I wanted it to be part of the story, in some deep way (and this was before all the weird science stuff even came into the story). I just can't exaggerate how BOLD that purple light science chamber was. I remember I was SO WORRIED that it might just be part of the background scenery. - It was such an OCD Relief when Cloud checks it out. There was something unique about that scene of seeing Jenova- like you have no clue what that thing is, but they show it in detail as if you're supposed to understand. It's espcially interesting that Barrett points out that it has now head - I couldn't even recognize that it was a Body at all. After Barrett says this we don't get to re-examine... Later on when we see Jenova in the Niberlheim reactor cutscene, we focus in on it's weird Sunglass wearing Female Face, and by that point the story is so crazy that I wasn't thinking about her Headless image... Not until I replayed the game, remembering that Barrett pointed out her not having a head, was I able to recognize that it was the same body that we see with a head in the Nibelheim scene... -Jenova is presented through the entire game in a way that hides her in plain sight, right at the center of all the Calamity, and even by the end of the game, her existence remains less than clear. This is what makes FF7 so replayable, it has a very shrouded, symbolic, cerebral narration that makes the plot seem completely different each time, especially in the context of who's the Antagonist (Sephiroth, Shinra, Meteor, Jenova, Hugo, Materia...)
Greg
Greg 5 måneder siden
I think sephiroth meeting jenova in nibelheim triggered some kind of awakening within his cells and initially jenova manipulate sephiroth to take her head with him so that she could manifest herself again with sephiroth body as a physical host but jenova realized that sephiroth strong will was going to carry out her wish better than herself therefore she decide to completely submit to his will. That is why sephiroth is able to shapeshift himself throughout his clones and that the jenova reunion is centered around him now and not jenova herself.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 5 måneder siden
I think the Reuinion could be around Jenova (too), because Jenova's head is at the North Crater too. We don't have much (in regards of the "strong will") beyond a claim of Cloud (if we looked through the translation mistake) and how would he know. Ofc it is possible that his will power helps him withstand Jenova, but as said considering how much detail and complexity we get in some areas, this explanation is clearly lacking. But it's not only withstanding, it's controlling Jenova? Why? A fusion between Jenova and Sephiroth makes much more sense, because in this case they don't have to "fight". But as shown in the video, ignoring the correct translation of some passages, the game strongly hints at the Jenova theory.
Kyzer Soze
Kyzer Soze 6 måneder siden
Sephiroth has always been and will always be THE avatar and physical manifestation of Jenova. He fell into the lifestream with her head. It’s not that much of a stretch to say that they are one and the same. Sephiroths power we see in the remake is pretty much the type of power that a pseudo human jenova would have. Hopefully we get a boss battle like that in the future parts of the remake to lay her to rest once and for all.
Shizuma
Shizuma 6 måneder siden
I think of it this way... Jenova is not a creature with a will in the sense of being a singular being; but rather it is a lifeform that simply carries out its genetic destiny to absorb life from planets. It is frozen in North Crater and essentially stopped, its embodiment of a assimilated Cetra is frozen and mindless. The thing here is, its cells are re-introduced, first to Sephiroth; Who is very much a person with his own will and own mind; but his genetics are of Jenova, so he is destined toward the same genetic destiny - (not unlike having blue eyes, etc). Sephiroth inherits all of Jenova's abilities given time to assimilate within the lifestream, with the other parts of the Jenova genetics (Cloud, etc) being subject to him. This is not so much Sephiroth taking control, but defaulting to control. They are in a sense the same will; With Sephiroth being the ego, and Jenova being the instinct.
Clinton Boucheix
Clinton Boucheix 6 måneder siden
I liked that deep dive. That's cleared up a few things that I was sketchy on. I noticed a common element with Lucricia's, Sephiroth's and Jenova's bodies all kept preserved in some sort of containment being rich in mako energy. I think that bit about the release of a virus that made the ancients see their mothers and brothers and turn into monsters makes me wonder if Jenova isn't nothing more than a psycho active virus. After the Niebelheim incident, Hojo injected into Cloud some of Jenova cells. Cloud adopting the identity of Zack and forgetting many things about his own life before that point could have been early symptoms of the Jenova virus. Every time Cloud got a flashback or a vision, these might have been episodes induced by his condition. I'm still working on this theory but I think there's something there.
Vince Unknown
Vince Unknown 6 måneder siden
I always thought Jenova was a sinspawn that evolved into something else
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
nice theory
Vince Unknown
Vince Unknown 6 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames Yeah Sinspawn in FFX lets just say when sin returns in X3 it creates a new type of sin spawn and when Tidus and them fight and defeat that sin spawn it flies off into space and evolves into the Jenova we know now
Vince Unknown
Vince Unknown 6 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames Yeah since FFX and FF7 are connected
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
Sinspawn as in FFX?
kaos krool
kaos krool 6 måneder siden
If you are 100% that jenova is behind of sephiroth with only FF7 wait until you put CC,AC,DoC and FF7R into the mix :D
kaos krool
kaos krool 6 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames I understand you point 103% but you missed mine :D.There some elements in the Compilation games and movie that can support that jenova IS the true villan of FF7 and after FF7R im pretty sure thats the way it will go.Just think from genesis have i black wind in the opposide side than sephiroth to sephiroth plan change from godhood to just destroy and ride the plantet to hojo looking for pure lifestream to FF7R mostly black cloacked ghosts trying to keep the timeline the same it look little suspicious right?
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
My point was, that if you just played the original game in 1997 (international version), you could totally think that it was Jenova, because the game clearly states this (sometimes by mistake ofc as shown). The devs probably did not intent this or they did and just later moved towards making Sephiroth the ultimate super villain. However the development and ideas when they created the game back in the day are a "black box". It's possible that they made up things afterwards or that it was their intention all along. What ever it was now ofc they say: yes Sephiroth is the puppet master, who can even manipulate time itself (I personally also think that AC's story is absolute tosh not to say bs). I personally believe some ideas weren't flashed out that much during the original development and they ended up being very vague. jenoca was probably not meant to be the puppet master though. But it was also not that important, because the vagueness was interesting and mysterious. Later they moved towards into the direction designing the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII towards the "Sephiroth" theory, because they liked the idea more or because Sephiroth is super popular, who knows. But for the Compilation they needed to remove much of the vagueness (which was a huge appeal of the original for me and is why I was very disappointed with everything that came after; CC was a very nice game though.)
AD Lance
AD Lance 6 måneder siden
Jenova, D4C: 999999 iq explanation
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
yes I think so. Not too familiar with jojo though and had to look it up ^^
L0r3l0rd2401
L0r3l0rd2401 6 måneder siden
AD Lance is that a jojo reference!
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
^^
Sean O
Sean O 6 måneder siden
I appreciate what you've done here but you cut out so much lore. It's like trying to understanding all of Star Wars by only watcing A New Hope
debaronAZK
debaronAZK 4 måneder siden
personal canon is far more important than creator canon, imho. I accept the fact they made a sequel to FFX but I don't accept it into my personal/internal canon.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
Yes and no. The necromancer part of the story of Hobbit was not closed in contrast (you actually did not know what happened) and Tolkien worked on the LotR universe (his Silmarillion) before he started writing the Hobbit (he started writing his mythology in the 1920 and wrote Hobbit in the 1930s). FF7 ends with the planet cleansing everything bad - esp. Sephiroth and Jenova. So a sequel makes no sense, when it comes to he whole Sephiroth Jenova part. LotR ends with Sauron being destroyed and so there is no sequel. Tolkien actually started to write a sequel for LotR, but abandoned it, because he thought it made not sense to write one. From my perspective the story of FFVII is pretty completed and some of the later releases contradict parts of the original. PS: in addition this was more a retrospective. How would you understand the story, when you just played through it.
Sean O
Sean O 6 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames either way you're choosing aspects of a canon to work with. Lord of the Rings works without the Hobbit but it's there for a reason. LOTR came later and expanded/made up more material for the One Ring. When a creator continues their story, It's odd to cut it out of their canon.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
Well it's easy to make up stuff afterwards ^^ That maybe a reason why nothing makes too much sense. I would say it's like ignoring the prequels and the Sequels and only looking at the classic trilogy.
Omizuke
Omizuke 6 måneder siden
Sephiroth was Sephiroth for many parts, and he was not mindless. But it was clearly Jenova the one pulling the strings. But unlike for other that mind control was used. With Sephiroth was just manipulation. He snapped when he found out his origins. It goes along the mentality of when a good kid found out he is adopted and so become a rebellious kid. With the whole, "your not my real parent!" attitude. Even if the parents were perfect. After snapping Jenova takes advantage of his weakened mind state. Offer him a family and a propose a huge one at that. Kinda like a cult work and recruit him. By the end even if/when he reach a point were he learn that he is not a Cetra. He also learn that he is not a Cetra, but something "better" more powerful. With momy Jenova filling his head with "you are not some measly Cetra. You are a *GOD* ```disclaimer you gotta help me crack open the earth first``` A God" By feeding him this "she" can further manipulate him. And he will not care that in the end he wan't a Cetra. So there is not real "master and mindless puppet" between Sephiroth and Jenova. Neither of them is mindless. This is more akin to Palpatine and Anakin or Sauron and Sauroman. Sauroman/Anakin are not fully mindless puppets but they are manipulated, coerced and corrupted into doing their "masters" bidding. And although they fallow their masters, betraying their masters is not unthinkable. Sauroman if he had the power he would bend Sauron to his will instead for his "loyalty" is power based. As for Vader and Sidius is a bit more like Jenova and Sephiroth. Cult like. Anakin did saw Palpatin as a mentor/father figure, he won him over by gaining his trust and feeding him with something Anakin craved. When he was at his worst, Pal was there for him. Like how Jenova was there for Seph when he breaks down. They, Seph and Ani, are victims here, even from their conceptions, there was meddling, the got a bad hand and were manipulated into monsters. Anakin does gets better at the very end, with help. But Sephiroth double down, he doesn't even have someone to help him. Not that I believe it would've help him at the end. He wanted power above all else. You can find psychological similarities here and there, bits, on more entertainment pieces. In DC comics and Marvel, in SW and LotR, hell even the MCU has the Loki finding he is adopted and later throwing a tantrum. And by tantrum I mean invading a planet as a God to rule or destroy who oppose him. Then acting like it was all tomfoolery. I don't think Sephiroth sees as anything that he do as evil, he is above all that. And everything he is doing is a means to an end, to obtain Godhood. Anyway, great video, other than I'm pretty sure there was no clear puppet master and mindless puppet. As for his powers, he is strong with the Jenova cells, allowing him to use powers Jenova has, and it is also connected to the world in his half dead state, tapping in to the lifestream. You are focusing too much on out of time events. Like comparing Sephiroth power now with his strength when he was defeated by Cloud. Not the same. You could say he was more human then, he is more Jenova/monster/spiritual now. Like saying Gandalf is weaker because Sauroman beats him. Later when he return he is strongest. From the beginning Sephiroth true abilities were limited by his "human body" something that no longer limits him. He body is on the Northern crater while he is projecting around the world.
Jackson Estacado
Jackson Estacado 6 måneder siden
What about the new ff7, sorry I haven't played it. My kids won't let me play game. They want to learn our culture. If they are not playing games, they only let me play ark and rust. They try and verse me in tekken 123. I beat them easy. They beat in the rest. Sorry I got this on pc 2 decade ago, so I hard modded it. Config files, easy.
Jackson Estacado
Jackson Estacado 6 måneder siden
Thank you my kids prefer your pronunciation too. Always awesome 👍👌my kids said you talk different. I said "listen to the annunciation Where's that Tolkien bestiary and look at the elvish part how it pronounced. Is he wrong". They looked at me and laughed and said. "you are right in how you say it. Because you are the only one, who tries and get it right" . Awesome my dude. Now they look at me at night when I'm on my phone and tell me to take my headphones off and they sit with me listening to you always. Thank you. Now they don't think I'm a dork. We all sit around a fire listening to you. Awesome. Only problem I don't get my speaker headphones back. But nothing wrong with that you got little fans. A 12 year old and 8 year old. Awesome, you have to do something on Raymond E feist riftwar. Thats the books I read to them now. They love pug and thomas/ashan. They and myself ha e been looking for someone to go more in depth on riftwar. I have been telling them about Jimmy the hand and his descendants and they tell me to read the Silverthorne over and over, they love little Jimmy. I am sure you are the only 1 who can explain the whole series properly.😁😊😎 Sorry made a lot of mistakes, sneaking off for a drink with my wife. We are both a bit tippsy. You are best baby sitter
Jackson Estacado
Jackson Estacado 6 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames thank you for that. I have to get back to the house in Sydney. Because of the lockdown I took my family to the Blue mountain's, where we dont have to stay locked in a house. And we could walk around. The kids could play and fish, and my wife could relax and I take them caving and swimming and stuff. And there's good reception out here. Left most electronics at home. They have there tablets for school work, and I have 6 Ancher solar panels. It's fun, they got their bikes, my wife and I get to ride horses around. We help out at the horse raunch in the afternoon, grooming the horses, cleaning out there hoves of stones and feeding, for cheap hire really cheap. The owners are old, extra 5 pair of hands really helps them out. And they kids get to learn everything I know about horses. Thank you very much.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
You can try the free Demo of the game (you should find it in the PSN store; in Germany you need PS+ to load it though, but in e.g. the US store not) and see if you like the combat. There are a lot more abilities and spells in the game and you later control 3 characters. The core combat gameplay loop imo stays the same though. If you like it it maybe be enjoyable to play for you.
Jackson Estacado
Jackson Estacado 6 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames thank you for the heads up, on the game. I'll watch it on NOpost instead first. Saves me buying it for the kids, unless the nag me. Thank you
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
Event hough the new FF7 Remake seems to be liked by most people, I did not like it at all. When it comes to story, it's only the Midgar section and makes several changes to the story. It adds a component to the story, I absolutely hate, but it would be a huge spoiler.
Final Fantasy Dreams
Final Fantasy Dreams 6 måneder siden
In my head I was thinking that a group of teens were on a hunt to shinra and a girl named Jessie aka JENOVA was captured and put on one of those tubes and the teens were to late
rhythmandacoustics
rhythmandacoustics 6 måneder siden
Virus = Jenova Cell , I still think Sephiroth overwhelmed the cells through his will .
merrynightwanderer
merrynightwanderer 6 måneder siden
Purely from the standpoint of characterization and telling a good story, to me it makes the most sense that Jenova is, in one sense, "controlling" Sephiroth. Jenova is the illusion master. Cloud's story arc involves him conquering his self-delusions, and this forms a beautiful antithesis to Sephiroth's own delusions of grandeur in Nibleheim. The reason why the Nibleheim sequence is so striking is because of the dramatic irony. Sephiroth, who has been set apart as a superior form of human, has always feared that he's actually just one of Hojo's monsters. He deludes himself into believing he's a superior Cetra when the truth is in fact the worst of his fears - not only is he Hojo's star experiment, he's the SON of Hojo (who he notably detests), and he's lashed to the source of the Cetra's destruction. Key to Sephiroth's appeal is his incredible power, but also how reserved and human he seems before his madness, how trapped he feels and how he's clearly undergoing a crisis of identity. The idea that he just goes to the Lifestream and learns the truth - in addition to being very weak, storytelling-wise, since it happens offscreen - undermines the incredible scenes that gave Sephiroth his popularity. The whole point of Nibleheim is that this person, who seems to have such godlike competence, is completely wrong about everything, and this is further underscored when you fight Hojo (who crows about being Sephiroth's father despite Sephiroth hating him - definitely suggesting that Sephiroth remains ignorant about this) and find Lucrecia, the actual, real loving mother that Sephiroth never had. But while I think Jenova is deluding Sephiroth, I think the "symbiotic" theory actually makes more sense when you think about what Jenova is; the game only tells us that it's basically a kind of cosmic virus. I don't think Jenova appears to be exactly sentient - it's just good at mimicking sentience, and Jenova is clearly playing into the whole "Mother" idea (remember, the female figure in the test tube is just the Cetra with Jenova's cells in her - not Jenova itself), and it's notable that Sephiroth continues calling her mother even after he "learns the truth." This absolutely fits with the lines about Jenova mimicking loved ones to get what it wants. And Sephiroth's delusions of grandeur absolutely chart their strategy and course of action. I don't think Jenova cares how it happens that it consumes everything and rides the cosmos; it's pure instinct, and it is just driving Sephiroth toward that end. Sephiroth's apotheotic aspirations and god complex are entirely his own, even if Jenova's control over the delusions that form his new identity are absolute, since, being literally in his body, the capacity to create illusions for him is probably unbridled.
Jenova
Jenova 4 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames where exactly? I've played the more times than I can count. If you gave me a line of dialogue, i could tell you what the next line is. I have had multiple playthroughs as a kid before Advent Children/compilation came out. In recent years, I have even learned the speedrun for the game. Never have I gotten any dialogue or lore hinting that jenova was in control. Regardless, it was Nojima's idea from the get go that Sephiroth was in control. Hence why you fight AND DEFEAT Jenova before having the final boss fight with Sephiroth. Sephiroth was the first and only being born with Jenova cells. This is an allusion to Jesus being the human manifestation of God. Jesus and God are one being, but two different entities. Same thing with Sephiroth and Jenova. Sephiroth was born with Jenova cells long after Jenova became dormant and essentially lifeless. Sephiroth used Jenova's abilities to control other subjects injected with jenova cells, causing him to be able to use Jenova's powers to manipulate these subjects and turn them into clones of himself. When a clone is no longer useful, he uses the Jenova cells to transform them into a Jenovian monster. There is absolutely no evidence that Jenova was ever in control. Imagine making an antagonist to a 3 disc game only to have them be controlled by a character with literally no dialogue ever in the game. Cloud's anger is with Sephiroth, not Jenova. The implication of Jenova controlling Seph provides absolutely NO catharsis in the end game. Now THAT would be poor writing.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
yes later on, the original (as merrynightwanderer wrote) implies that it#s actually Jenova all the time, even though this might have been a happy accident.
merrynightwanderer
merrynightwanderer 6 måneder siden
@Jenova Nomura has indeed said that and the "Compilation of FF7" material does claim it. The original game, however, as this video shows, is much more ambiguous. I'm basically saying that Sephiroth being in control is really bad writing. The story is much better with Jenova influencing him to a very large degree.
Jenova
Jenova 6 måneder siden
Fortunately the story writers have given many a hint that Sephiroth is the one controlling Jenova
xcom54
xcom54 6 måneder siden
I like it. :)
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 6 måneder siden
happy to hear, thank you :)
frnknstndrgqn
frnknstndrgqn 7 måneder siden
My theory was it was Jenova at first using Sephiroth's image to scare the crap out of everyone, since if she can turn herself into the dead and control people than she could probably read minds. Part of me always thought Sephiroth was a victim. He was in his mother's womb, injected with alien cells, then when he was born he was taken away from his birth parents (He didn't know who his parents were so it's safe to assume Hojo possibly knew where he was but never raised him himself) Was told by someone maybe Hojo that his mother's name was Jenova, but never met her. He felt different as a child he says so in the flashbacks that he thought he was special in some way. Professor Gast never told Sephiroth about the Jenova project, killed by Hojo before Gast could ever really say anything to him. It seemed that Professor Gast and Sephiroth were close considering he seemed really sad about Gast dying, I think maybe Sephiroth was manipulated into freeing Jenova in Nibelheim in the first place. He basically was manipulated into thinking his real mother was a cetra and that the planet was stolen from her. Which could be something the Jenova cells inside him possibly made him think, being in such close proximity to the main body. So grief, sadness, all of those things combined could have made him an easy target for manipulation. Thinking that he was avenging a wrong done to Jenova by regular people. Because if the theory that sephiroth was controlling Jenova was true, wouldn't he have been able to see his real mother or sense her because she had Jenova cells still inside her as well? I dunno I could just be talking out of my ass.
frnknstndrgqn
frnknstndrgqn 7 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames yeah. I mean if what some said is true that he was figuring out everything through the lifestream while in it, he should have known about hojo and lucrecia
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Yes my idea of the story is very similar and I think it's quite tragic. That Sephiroth probably can't "sense" his actual mother Lucrecia and should at least know about her, is also a good argument.
Bahamut86
Bahamut86 7 måneder siden
Ich bin dreist und schreibe einfach mal in Deutsch: Die Puppetmaster-Theorie fand ich auch schon immer faszinierend. Aber genau da liegt ihr vielleicht ihr größter Schwachpunkt: Man will sie wahr haben WEIL sie so faszinierend ist. Darum glauben auch einige Leute an UFOs oder die Illuminati. (Oder an die Rinoa ist Artemisia-Theroie) Und wenn genug nach Hinweisen sucht wird man auch welche finden. Jedenfalls denke ich, dass vieles in der Hintergrundgeschichte einfach lückenhaft ist. Wenn ich mich richtig erinnere war die Rückblende wo Zack mit Cloud aus Nibelheim entkommen und kurz vor Mitgar getötet wurde nicht mal in der japanischen Version von FF7. Aber die Szene füllt eine sehr wichtig Lücke in Clouds Vergangenheit. Und Sephiroths Willenskraft wurde immer als Grund genannt wie er im Lebensstrom überleben konnte, Jenovas Körper und die Klone kontrollieren konnte und Holy unterdrücken konnte. Eine recht schwach Erklärung, aber OK.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
No problem, I answer in English though (it's my personal "code of conduct" for the comment section to always answer in English if possible). Yes agreed. I think too that there are gaps in the story that make it possible and still I think the hints (as shown) are definitely in the game if you look at the international version, but ofc just by accident. Agreed the argument of Sephiroth's will power is really weak while other things feel far more complex and explored. I think you are right. This scene is probably also missing in the Japanese version. (PS: I checked a list with differences, but it was not listed, maybe an oversight or it was present in the Japanese version finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII_version_differences)
Trevor Anthony
Trevor Anthony 7 måneder siden
Get to the point damn
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
haha getting to the point is definitely not a thing I do on this channel ^^ Usually I discuss things in detail and a complex topic needs a lot of explanation. tl;dr a story with a lot of gaps and some little translation mistakes in the English and other international versions made it very plausible that Jenova is the puppet master behind all of this and even Sephiroth is a victim of her control, even though it seems this was never intended by the developers.
That Guy
That Guy 7 måneder siden
Two weeks later, I can't believe this video has so few views. I honestly expected it to explode.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
That can always take some time, but I'm actually quite happy with the views. My Gaming content sadly does not get that many views and publishing videos for multiple unrelated (or only very distantly related) topics on the same channel is also not ideal on NOpost. But I think the video still has potential because after the Remake some people will replay the original, because the Remake is very different at many places and also not the complete story, so I expect the video getting slowly more views over time.
Cripple Ninja
Cripple Ninja 7 måneder siden
Oooooooo K Here's what happened: Sepy the head and the sword fell in, J.E.N.O.V.A. (headless) leads you on the quest for Black Materia in disguise. The sword left behind, the head attacks later. Are we done here?
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
haha but where doe all the swords come from? ^^
lumber zack
lumber zack 7 måneder siden
Great video. You really took the time to explain the jenova theory and honestly it's got me thinking in a good way. Played it as a teen but didn't dig into the details. Just thought, sephoroth is bad. Jenova is a mystery. But you made a strong case for the jenova theory which helps me see sephoroth as a character with more empathy. The jenova theory also makes me think along the lines of religious thought, where often Satan is supposed to be someone physically handsome but mentally extremely influential. In this case, the physical would just be manifestations of sephoroth for jenova to extend her influence and destroy humanity. Anyways, do you think that the ending of ff7 is a "bad ending" with the uncertainty if any humans survived? All we see is red 13 and don't know if humans bonded with earth or if they were anniliated. It seems many people were upset by this ending. So I think with ff7r, they are trying to use this theme of "fighting destiny" to offer an alternative ending, which I'm personally hopeful but very nervous if they can pull it off.
Red Knight
Red Knight 7 måneder siden
Brilliant work, if I dare say so myself. I actually remember coming to similar conclusions when I played the game back in the 90s. It never made much sense to me that Sephiroth was the main villain. I actually always saw him more of a tragic villain similar to Darth Vader who was at every part of his life used by others for their own means. Even his creation and birth was not that out of love, but one of experimentation and devious plans to make a super soldier. I always interpreted the story as Jenova influencing him, driving him mad and then using him for her own means. I also never saw true Sephiroth as being evil. It's only once he meets Jenova that he goes crazy. That makes him more of a fallen hero than a villian. And since Jenova is by nature a shapeshifter and good at manipulation, she just took Sephiroth's form to use Cloud, confuse her enemies and hide her true identity. After all, the enemy you don't know and don't understand has a tactical advantage over you, and this is exactly what she has done in the past when she attacked the Cetra.
faiz
faiz 7 måneder siden
Nice vid! What made me wondering how in the world sephiroth doesnt hav any bit resemblance to hojo,but instead his physical tall and actions are abit same as vincent 🤔hmm can u do a theory about him ?
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thank you ^^ Yes good point. Would be interesting if Vincent was his father, but it's also a nice twist that Hojo was and the game clearly makes this statement and both Hojo and Vincent confirm, that Hojo was the father.
max1311
max1311 7 måneder siden
Great video, I hope you do one on the remake and what you think about the direction they seem to be going in.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thank you :) Thinking about making a video about the Remake. Was sadly not a huge fan of it.
Goku Sakai
Goku Sakai 7 måneder siden
I think Jenova and Sephiroth is same person with different name to confuse us.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
haha definitely a possibility ^^
iamrichlol
iamrichlol 7 måneder siden
Amazing video. thank you so, so much for this.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thank you, happy you liked it :)
holamoco17
holamoco17 7 måneder siden
Well done, very interesting!
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thank you, happy you enjoyed it :)
M Schoch
M Schoch 7 måneder siden
I wonder if the remake gives us finally a definitive answer about who is really in control.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Yes I'm also not a fan of the "fate ghosts" and the ending.
M Schoch
M Schoch 7 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames i liked most of it, except plot ghosts and the ending in itself is shit. But if they connect it in a good way there's still hope.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
I recently played through the remake and they did a lot of changes to the story. Not liking it at all. So we will see in which direction they are going, but I have a bad feeling about this.
M Schoch
M Schoch 7 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames they are working on this thing for years now. I hope they used the time to answer some questions.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Maybe, but afterwards you can say what ever you want anyway as creator/publisher. For me personally it counts what the game made me believe when I played it and that was: Jenova is behind everything ^^
Neemaz Allid
Neemaz Allid 7 måneder siden
Nice vid, I always play the game considering Jenova is behind all of this. It is way more coherent and interesting in many many ways. Not everything can be explained, but the creation of the game itself was a bit chaotic and we can only fill the gaps with our own imagination. This is also what makes this game so great ^^
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thank you :) Yes, I fully agree, you need to fill the gaps with your imagination and own interpretation. For me Jenova as main antagonist is much more interesting too.
Christoper Noyes
Christoper Noyes 7 måneder siden
Zepheeroth.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thank you ^^
Christoper Noyes
Christoper Noyes 7 måneder siden
ThePhilosophersGames great video ps!
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
:P
Jesús Villasevil
Jesús Villasevil 7 måneder siden
It was always in front of us: Səphīrōth (סְפִירוֹת, medieval Hebrew form of Sephirot; also spelled Sefirot), is a plural noun in Hebrew; the singular is Sephirah (also spelled Sefira). The Sephiroth are described in the Kabbalah as the manifestations of God that allow him to manifest in the physical and metaphysical universes. Sephiroth also means "counting" (of numbers). Sephiroth is the manifestation of God as well as the concept of "counting". He is just the MAIN avatar of Jenova, her favorite form; while the other "numbered" clones are just vessels of her will.
The MADGamer
The MADGamer 4 måneder siden
Pretty interesting stuff about Sephiroth. I recently learned that ra in japanese means from. Then thought about Cetra. Ceto (even though it's pronounced Keto) is a goddess born from Pontus and "Gaia." Setra sounds better than Ketra IMO, so let's go with that. Cetra could have been a name given to the ancients meaning "from the goddess of gaia" which would be Minerva? Shin in japanese can mean many things but as a name it means true or real. Shinra would mean "from that is real/true" which to me kinda makes sense. Considering their affinity for the ancients and trying to simulate their power by using mako reactors to create materia. Hachiman, also known as Hachiman-*shin* is the Japanese god of war and the protector of Japan and it's people. Shinra is a syndicate of war and definitely looked up to as the protectors of Midgar and it's people. This could be pretty far fetched but it was something fun to get my mind of the remake confusion.
Rob Shifflett
Rob Shifflett 5 måneder siden
@Jesús Villasevil I have been doing some light research into Kabbalah due to my interests in the direction of this game. I am very much interested in any knowledge you would be willing to share.
Jackson Estacado
Jackson Estacado 6 måneder siden
Japanese are good at taking in and researching western religions. It's all over anime
Jesús Villasevil
Jesús Villasevil 7 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames Well yes, although that starts to get very metaphysical. The Sephiroth (singular Sephira) are the 10 "concepts" or emanations that form everything: they come from God and are God. Some other numbers are important for Jewish kabbalah, like 49. Stay with me here: In Jewish kabbalah "Malkuth" (you could pronounce it Marco) is the 10th and closest to men Sephira, the revelation of the Plan of God. Also in the sub-divided sephira Count of the Omer (the 49 days of Seven Weeks of the Exodus), the last and 49th day is referred as "Malkuth inside Malkuth". It seems the creators of this game were big enthusiasts of Jewish esoteric texts SINCE SPOILERS: Marco, tattooed with the 49 number, takes the form of Sephiroth in the Shinra building Cosmo-video thing, revealing the Meteor plan. And there are many other things from Jewish culture and myth of you analyze them, like the exodus-reunion to a Promised Land, the angelic wings... even the name JENOVA is suspiciously close to JEHOVAH.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Oh very interesting. Thank you for the explanation. My knowledge about Hebrew is sadly very limited. it seems like a very interesting language. Yes that makes sense in this context. Sephiroth is connected to the number 10, isn't it?
Romuald Pinheiro IEC Student Electrician Apprentice
Romuald Pinheiro IEC Student Electrician Apprentice 7 måneder siden
Wow great theories. I am also leaning to the Jenova theory. So as long as Jenova is alive, "Sephiroth(Jenova zombies or puppets) " or any other jenova impersonations will be able to return over and over again or take other forms.
Romuald Pinheiro IEC Student Electrician Apprentice
Romuald Pinheiro IEC Student Electrician Apprentice 7 måneder siden
OK i had to revisit one more time and check out this website. In the remaster, when cloud says to specter Sephiroth (the Sephiroth in clouds head probably Jenova/Sephiroth messing with clouds mind) something along the lines of "you're already dead...", Sephiroth sounded confused "I am?".... So Sephiroth really died and Jenova is no longer dormant and maybe she is identity disoriented in the similar way that Cloud thought he was Zack..... Jenova was already a world destroyer, which suggests Jenova is a bio weapon like the flood of Halo. There is only Réunion and destruction and never any desire for propagation. And Jenova does need the mind to be weakened in order to control a person (Sephiroth was unable to take control of cloud in “Sephiroth (Jenova?)" moment of desperation to prevent Holi. There was also the barrier around Holi and that knowledge could only come from Jenova. Sephiroth mind had cracked long ago in Nibelheim and being exposed to so much Mako in the livestream....may be unconscious and disoriented if Sephiroth is indeed alive or can he even be considered alive given how disoriented he is. Jenova is the only one powerful enough to deal with the livestream (she clearly has destroyed many worlds) and her will to destroy is so strong that she can remain intact in the livestream and looking for opportunities to break free and complete her plan.... Oh yeah the video: nopost.info/throw/y62lqI-1w32Xosk/video Oh and this one is tinfoil AF but is mad funny lol: nopost.info/throw/trW3gK3blWueoqc/video
Romuald Pinheiro IEC Student Electrician Apprentice
Romuald Pinheiro IEC Student Electrician Apprentice 7 måneder siden
Check out this video: This one's a toughie because Sephiroth lost his mind when he reads and misinterpreted Gauss journal at nibelheim so he basically inherited a jenova like will for exterminating everyone. Also, Jenova goes to the location of crystallized Sephiroth instead of the other way around.... or maybe the Jenova body was just going to its head as Sephiroth took that. In either case, the lines are blurred meaning this could be Jenova and Sephiroth meld so much so that Sephiroth can control Jenova's abilities even outside his own body. nopost.info/throw/npzEaa_X02icna8/video
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thank you :) Yes I love the Jenova theory too. it offers many possibilities.
Everywhere Ed
Everywhere Ed 7 måneder siden
This Is a great video
Everywhere Ed
Everywhere Ed 7 måneder siden
I just finished remake I wanna definitely see your take on it drop the video when ready !!!
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
I try ^^ Still not through the Remake and my next Lord of the Rings lore video isn't done either yet, but I'm working on it.
Everywhere Ed
Everywhere Ed 7 måneder siden
ThePhilosophersGames keep dropping more content bro
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
thank you :)
HOW Dare You
HOW Dare You 7 måneder siden
**spoiler alert*** Do you think you'll do a video about the differences between the old story and the new. Not sure if it's an alternative universe or something else but I'd be curious about your take on it.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
I thought about it, but not sure yet. There are many differences and I'm not the hugest fan of the Remake I have to admit. A big Problem is, that you can also only save 10 times. Having savegames close to all the most story relevant scenes is very helpful, when you do videos like these, but 10 isn't even enough for each chapter -.-" I planned doing a review, but even here I'm not sure if I want to do that, would end up in a long rant.
Sac Pig
Sac Pig 7 måneder siden
Maybe when Seph became aware of who he was and slaughtered the town, it was Jenova realizing what it was. You could be right about her being damaged enough to not use her body anymore. Edit: I still think it's plausible from the ingame interactions
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
You mean the Sephiroth theory? Yes I guess its till works. Jenova could use her body at some point again, which for me is a big argument that she could not have been that damaged.
THE OTHER SIDE
THE OTHER SIDE 7 måneder siden
This was very enjoyable to watch/listen to! Definitely subscribing. I wanted to chime in on Sephiroth's motives because I've been thinking a lot about his treatment from the world around him. Sephiroth was a super-soldier who was created for the sake of research and weaponry. He'd been lied to by his father about his mother, and the company that basically raised him had, in the long run, controlled him to do their bidding. (That being Killing in the Wutai war, encouraging young boys all over to enlist in soldier, and much more) But, Sephiroth's frustration in Nibelheim didn't stem alone from his groundbreaking epiphany, it came from a want to finally have control over his own life. There were many times in Crisis Core where he and Zack would wonder 'who they were fighting for'. I could imagine this thought constantly ran in mind as he thought about his true origins. Wanting to control the world (or become God) was a step above what Shinra had posed itself to be; a governing god that used it's monopoly on Mako for world domination. Ironically, however, the last person that controlled him (in my opinion) was Jenova. Because the appearance she wears in battle is much different than what she shows Sephiroth while being intubated. She must have changed it to make Sephiroth think that she resembled him. Sephiroth hasn't the slightest clue of Lucrecia (his birth giver), so Jenova had to have been calling him to the room. She took advantage of his loss of sanity/sleep and tried to get him to set her free. After he had lost to Cloud, I think he ended up doing a lot of thinking in the lifestream. And that's when he stepped over Jenova, to then employ his new plan.
merrynightwanderer
merrynightwanderer 6 måneder siden
I think that's one of the reasons I prefer the Jenova control theory (to some degree) - there's just no big, dramatic scene of Sephiroth learning *the truth*, which was such a big deal to him in the Nibleheim sequence. It makes way more sense if Jenova is still telling him he's an Ancient. I also hate the idea of Sephiroth/Jenova surviving. The extended franchise seems obsessed with making Sephiroth some flashy DBZ villain rather than a character with actual motivations and a high-stakes plan. The whole point to Sephiroth is that Cloud, despite his initial "weakness," beats him, because Cloud conquers that identity crisis and becomes strong.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thank you, happy you found my video interesting :) I guess in a way Sephiroth has a similar identity loss as Cloud, but Cloud handles it better. Maybe because Cloud is not alone and has good friends (esp. Tifa), who help him. In this regard it's plausible to install Sephiroth as something like an antithesis to Cloud. Cloud wants to be a normal human being, the Cloud from the past, not a constructed Clone. Sephiroth embraces what he is and wants to expand on it. I still think that this makes most sense, when he also had a "friend" who pushed him there, which imo is Jenova. But still I think the game does not establish Sephiroth's intention well enough for this step by its own. He thinks he's a Cetra, so what? He could have become anti Shinra eco terrorist similar to Avalanche. But he spreads his hate towards all humans. He does not even try to be a Cetra, but does the exact opposite (hurting the planet). So maybe he learns later that Jenova and so him too was not a Cetra. Maybe this is where his true madness would begin (he learns in teh life stream). But the game never explores this part and is very vague about all of it, to the point that with the translation mistakes one could think he is also just a puppet and this seems totally plausible too, if you ignore the later publications of Square. I also hate the idea of Sephiroth and Jenova surviving at the end, because that would mean the original game lied to us. Bugenhagen can hear the planet to some degree too (not sure why he can, but it's implied multiple times) and seems like a reliable source (the game establishes him as one). Everything bad is removed, maybe even humanity and 500 years later it's not clear hat happened. Sephiroth is however not present.
ayoungspirit
ayoungspirit 7 måneder siden
The Ultimania guide, like the Compilation and the Remake for that matter, was made after Hironobu Sakaguchi left the company. It definitely had an impact. Anyway, it makes the story more interesting to me if we consider that Sephiroth is a tragic villain who faced a similar identity crisis as Cloud but lost himself and became one of the monsters he hated. Taking a psychological struggle and making it more literal helps to convey it to the audience in a simple and interesting way, as a metaphor I suppose. However, Jenova appears to be a chaotic entity itself, so it might actively need to borrow a form to manifest its will, just as the author needs some catalyst for an abstract concept. The remnant of Sephiroth would definitely help it mess with Shinra and the party. He was basically considered dead before Cloud and Aerith came across the headless body, and they would be key to unlock the black materia. Call that a soft hybrid or assimilation theory if you will. It is somewhat based on the movie the Thing after all. Thanks for the video !
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Yes something definitely changed at some point inside Square. Hironobu Sakaguchi leaving and not being as close to the project anymore could be a reason. I gave up hope for singleplayer Final Fantasy games a long time ago. And every time I give them a chance again I'm disappointed. Yes Sephiroth is definitely similar to Cloud when it comes to identity crisis, but Sephiroth handles it very different. Cloud tries to find his own past self and Sephiroth somewhat embraces what he has become. It's also really tragic inside the Jenova theory imo. Esp. that it's possible that he does not know that he is not a Cetra to some degree, but a human-alien hybrid.
Joao Leonardo
Joao Leonardo 7 måneder siden
My favorite theory is based on a tiny detail most people forget about Jenova and I'm glad the video mentioned: it's a virus. Dr. Gast discusses it with Ifalna, Aerith's mother. It's not an alien organism with some sort of consciousness. It just wants to infect, reproduce and consume everything. Shinra's scientific research discovered properties such as enhanced strength and magic capacity using the cells of what they thought was a Cetra (the pronunciation is not "Ketra" by the way, it's Cetra with a soft c, as it was Setora in Japanese). In reality though, it was the frozen remains of Jenova. In the experiment that led to Sephiroth, when Jenova cells were injected directly in the pregnant uterus of Lucretia, both human and Jenova became one, granting Sephiroth all his abilities but now with a human consciousness to guide it. The Jenova aspect in Sephiroth's body remained dormant until the Nibelheim incident, and from then on Sephiroth was reborn as the will of his "mother". Not a puppet of it but its own mind and master. Finally, in human terms, consume everything meant absorbing all the Lifestream of the Planet. It's not my theory, I read it somewhere long ago and loved it and stuck with me. It also resonates with the more subdued religious themes. Now, if some of you notice similarities between that and Parasite Eve, well both PE and FFVII were basically products of the same brainstorm of ideas Square had in the mid 90s (along with Xenogears in the religious, mental breakdowns and freudian stuff).
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Yes, and even for Celtic both pronunciations are viable (according to the Cambridge dictionary). Quite interesting ^^
Joao Leonardo
Joao Leonardo 7 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames English is not my native language as well, but there are some words with "c" and "e" that are pronounced with a "k" sound, such as celtic. Can't think of many though
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Yes the virus theory is also an interesting one and very unique. It has some foundation too, but I think there are also some arguments against it I guess (e.g. the scientists (Lucracia, Hojo, Gast) never call it a virus). It could explain though how Sephiroth got Jenova's abilities. Pronunciation-wise, yes you are right (I even looked up the Japanese word for Cetra while making the video), I think my tendency to say "Ketra" comes from me being German, where C is often pronounced as K; it's a bit inconsistent. I also checked some other FFVII videos on YT and usually there people said "Ketra" (native speakers). But now that I think about it: is there actually any English word that starts with the letter C and E (ceramic, certain) that have a C pronounced as K? Ofc words starting with CA do, like "can", "cannon", etc. I write it down into the mistakes section in the description and now I know for the future, thanks for the hint ^^
HyperGlameow
HyperGlameow 7 måneder siden
My favorite Final Fantasy is X, Vii was really great too
HyperGlameow
HyperGlameow 7 måneder siden
@BlackLeo that's really crazy they connected the games like that
BlackLeo
BlackLeo 7 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames yea, Shinra is a character in 10 and although the name was the only thing to go on before, now the remake confirms the theory. In the shinra building there is a picture of the character from ff10.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
is that so? interesting
BlackLeo
BlackLeo 7 måneder siden
Good news: 10 and 7 are connected, 7 takes place in the future of 10.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
I also like Final Fantasy VI. need to replay that one at some point too.
Ethan Davis
Ethan Davis 7 måneder siden
You once told me you named this channel ThePhilosophersGames to be a channel about games, not Lord of the Rings. I’m glad you found the time to chase that goal. Really fantastic content with a very interesting perspective and well researched points. I look forward to the next one!
Ethan Davis
Ethan Davis 7 måneder siden
ThePhilosophersGames absolutely! It’s great content! The game vids and the LotR as well. One of my favorite channels!
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Yes I remember ^^ From time to time I love making game related videos and this one was a passion project (had the idea probably over a year ago). It's a nice change here and then, even though I also love making LotR content. The film/book differences and references series is really fun to make too. The last FF7 video performed really well, so I hope this one does too. So far I'm happy with it. Maybe I make a little review for the Remake too.
Chris Kaufman
Chris Kaufman 7 måneder siden
I think its a mind meld. If jenova was a space parasite , Id land on earth take or incorporate the best that world had to offer then the next. Shinras always shown as evil but i think its what stopped jenova. If it was me. Id crash into earth slowly mix genes making them stronger more likely to survive. Until jenova is everything on earth. Shinra jumped it half way through the plan and it alerted others.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Yes that's basically what the hybrid theory of both says, I like that idea too.
That Guy
That Guy 7 måneder siden
Even tho I never played FF7 I really enjoyed the video. This story is somehow mesmerising, and I fear a warning for our future.
AkTemplar907
AkTemplar907 9 timer siden
@That Guy take time to either play ,or watch a play through. Trust me , you’ll fall in love
That Guy
That Guy 7 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames Alien and corporate AI threats also I believe. I knew most charracters from pop culture so video wasn't impossible to follow altho not super easy.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Happy to hear. I'm quite curious how people see this video, without knowing the game. I tried to explain everything, but no clue if I succeeded. Yes it's interesting how up-to-date the game is topic wise. It features ecological damages to the planet, a "virus", power of monopoly, corruption, etc
HOW Dare You
HOW Dare You 7 måneder siden
Yes! Glad you made this. I loved the original story too.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Happy you liked it :) It was a passion project i had in mind for a long time.
TreeSLife
TreeSLife 7 måneder siden
I think there is something child-like (in a good way) about the urge to explore and find out how the world really works. I might be that which makes it so that children love good stories and want to hear them again and again if there is something to be understood from it. I recall my own childhood where I was obsessed with books, games or movies which gave you a story to think about. I never really got around to play through Final Fantasy VII, but I got to understand where your passion comes from. You kept that drive to immerge deeply into stories like LotR and others. Thank you for taking us with you
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Agreed. And I guess I preserved something of this even as an adult ^^ Happy you liked it and that it worked out sharing my passion :)
RDY2PWNU
RDY2PWNU 7 måneder siden
I was 13 when i played the game (the german version). I played it again 2018 on Steam. For me Sephiroth always felt like he was a victim and his mind got shattered by finding out the truth. Thats when he went into full soziopath mode but got stopped by cloud. Jenova however is a much more convincing antagonist because she/it has the lovecraftian unknown/cosmic horror touch on her/it. So naturally her intellect should be far superior to that of the humans she faces. Sephiroth is to her like darth maul to palpatine if that makes sense. He is a tool, a weapon and expandable. I agree to the Jenova Theorie. That lore that got added later was just capitalizing on the fact that Sephiroth became basicly pop culture.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Sounds familiar ^^ I can't agree more. I se him as a victim too (I think the Jenova Theory makes his character very tragic). But yes you are right, I can imagine it has to do with Sephiroth's popularity, that he became so present in e.g. the Sequels.
Noel Gonzalez
Noel Gonzalez 7 måneder siden
I always found to Jenova be the most interesting part of Final Fantasy 7 so the video gets my love for that, Great Vid as Always and Happy Easter!!
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thank you and happy Easter ^^ Yes Jenova is a really interesting "character" of FF7. I also like Cloud with his identity crisis. It's really complex.
Sandor Clegane
Sandor Clegane 7 måneder siden
What is this? I thought this w as a LOTR channel! I'm still waiting for more book and film difference videos and you make this?
Sandor Clegane
Sandor Clegane 7 måneder siden
@ThePhilosophersGames Haha thank you so much!!!
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
New Tolkien Lore video :P nopost.info/throw/tq_JoJ_K3niYnrc/video
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Thanks ^^
EJ Nytryta
EJ Nytryta 7 måneder siden
Naw this was cool.. Keep doing other content too! I love FF7 and this was dope.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
haha :D at times I do also gaming related content and this was a very important video for me personally (originally this was a pure gaming channel). It's also basically a lore video, just about that game. Don't worry next videos will be again LotR related. I maybe do a FFVII Remake review in between. But that should be it for Final Fantasy VII. It's my favourite game of all time with Deus Ex 1. next LotR episode will be about Glorfindel I guess.
Mr. Sam
Mr. Sam 7 måneder siden
Was 8 years old when I first played this, even then I knew it was something special. Hope you're enjoying the Remake! Awesome vid, getting stuck into watching.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
Yes good old time ^^ It's a really special game for me personally too. So I'm very happy that I could make this video. Yes curious how I will like the remake. I fear I won't like it this much, but we will see. I fear the story changes.
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
What are you theories about Final Fantasy VII's story? Did you like the Jenova theory back in the day? What is your opinion on the Remake (please mark spoilers)? [Hint: a week after release of this video comments are easier for me to see, when you don't answer to an existing comment and post a new comment instead] Shout outs to halkeye777 (translated Japanese texts for me) Check his Twitch Channel:www.twitch.tv/halkeye777 Twitter: twitter.com/halkeye777 ► Social Media: ➥Twitter (@PhilosophGames): twitter.com/philosophgames ➥Twitch Channel - twitch.tv/thephilosophersgames ➥Discord Server - discord.gg/SPW68vh
Deuces Mofo
Deuces Mofo 7 måneder siden
hey i got here first
ThePhilosophersGames
ThePhilosophersGames 7 måneder siden
haha congratulations :)
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